Called to Communion is a Roman Catholic organization comprised of former Protestants. The desire of Called to Communion is “to effect reconciliation and reunion between Catholics and Protestants, particularly those of the Reformed tradition.” Of course, there can never be “reunion” unless there had first been a “union,” and Roman Catholicism as it is practiced today was never a part of the Church of Jesus Christ. As we have noted in The Rise of Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholicism was formed out of a great apostasy that took place in the late 4th century and many of its doctrines—its own apologists admit this—cannot be traced any earlier than that. As we noted in When ‘Mary’ Got Busy, Eucharistic Adoration did not even arrive on the scene until the 11th century. Roman Catholicism simply is not as old as it claims to be, and is certainly not as old as the Church of Jesus Christ.
Therefore, “reunion” is the wrong word for those who depart the faith and join Roman Catholicism. They are not Christians reunited with the True Church. They are apostates who have “wondered after the beast” (Revelation 13:3), and have joined Antichrist, a religion that came up 300 years after the apostolic era.
Nevertheless, Called to Communion seeks to draw Christians away from the faith “by removing obstacles founded upon misunderstandings,” and one of those obstacles is Baptismal Regeneration. Called to Communion believes that Baptismal Regeneration has been taught by the Church since the first century, and has attempted to remove that obstacle through a helpful summary of The Church Fathers on Baptismal Regeneration. As is typical for Roman Catholic apologists, too much later Roman Catholic doctrine is read into too little information from the Fathers—and always through Roman Catholic lenses that assume the Early Church was Roman Catholic.
We will address the analysis of Called to Communion in the order of its arguments to show just how poorly its apologists have handled the Fathers. We shall also find how selective Called to Communion is in its use of the Early Church Fathers. Under each Church Father we provide Called to Communion‘s argument, and follow it with our analysis. Where the Church Fathers can be found online, we have provided links to their works so our readers can read the Fathers for themselves in context.
What we find in this six-week comprehensive analysis of the first four centuries is that the Fathers believed that baptism was necessary because Christ commanded it, but that regeneration was by the ministry of the preached Word (Romans 10:17) and the Holy Spirit (Acts 16:14), independent of, and antecedent to, the application the water.
Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st or early 2nd century)
Called to Communion: “In AD 107, St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, wrote a letter to the Church at Ephesus, while being escorted by Roman soldiers to Rome to be martyred. In that letter he writes:
… He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water. (Epistle to the Ephesians, 18)
This notion that Christ purified the waters is found in other Church Fathers as well, but this is the earliest record we have of the statement. … [W]hen we are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, we are purified, not by the removal of dirt from the body, but by the forgiveness of sin and the reception of the Life of God within us.”
White Horse Blog: We respond that this is hardly evidence for Baptismal Regeneration, and it is a fine demonstration of just how selective Roman Catholics are in their use of the Fathers. In the previous chapter, Ignatius had written, “For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe immortality into His Church” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, XVII). If ever there was a statement from the earliest Church Fathers about “the reception of the Life of God within us,” it is Ignatius’ statement that immortality is breathed into the church by oil rather than water.
We do not offer this (nor does Called to Communion offer it) as evidence of regeneration by anointing, or what Roman Catholics call the Sacrament of Confirmation. In fact Rome denies Confirmational Regeneration, which is why Baptism and Confirmation are separate rites in Eastern and Latin traditions (CCC, 1233). In Rome, it is the water, not the oil that regenerates. The use of oil in the Sacrament of Confirmation is alleged to do a lot of things (guide, seal, protect, enroll, commission, etc..; Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1296), but it is not a “garment of immortality.” That title is reserved for baptism (CCC, 1216). Yet for some reason, Ignatius assigns to water the attribute of purity, and to oil the instrumentality of immortality. Called to Communion ignores this and then finds regeneration in a sentence that had nothing to do with regeneration.
Our point is simply that if Called to Communion takes Ignatius’ words that Jesus’ baptism purified the waters unto Baptismal Regeneration, then Jesus’ anointing in John 12:7 must have purified the oil unto Confirmational Regeneration, for by that oil, Jesus “breathe[d] immortality into His Church.” But this is not what Rome currently teaches, and therefore this is not what Called to Communion found in Ignatius. This pattern continues with the rest of the Fathers in the first few centuries: Rome’s apologists are only able to find what they already believed to be true.
Barnabas of Alexandria (2nd Century)
Called to Communion: “Here is a selection from the eleventh chapter of the Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) describing baptism:
“This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”
Baptism is here described as immediately removing sins and producing immediate fruit in the heart. The notion that baptism bears immediate fruit in the heart implies that baptism regenerates the baptized person.”
White Horse Blog: We see again how Called to Communion can find only what they already believed to be true. We invite our readers to read Barnabas in his context to see that he is here appropriating Scriptural metaphors from Psalm 1, and in the process reveals that he understood that eternal life comes by faith, and faith comes by the preaching of the Word, and it is they who have already received eternal life by faith in the preached Word who “go down into the water.”
Leading up to this citation, Barnabas has cited Psalm 1:3-6, which says, “The man who does these things [i.e., meditates on the Law] shall be like a tree planted by the courses of waters…,” and makes note of the metaphors of wood (tree) and water. He explains that these metaphors refer to the Cross and Baptism, and in the process teaches that believers put their trust in the cross, and having been regenerated by the preaching of the Word then go down into the water:
“Mark how He has described at once both the water and the cross. For these words imply, Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water; for, says He, they shall receive their reward in due time: then He declares, I will recompense them. But now He says,
Their leaves shall not fade.This means, that every word which proceeds out of your mouth in faith and love shall tend to bring conversion and hope to many. Again, another prophet says,And the land of Jacob shall be extolled above every land.Zephaniah 3:19 This means the vessel of His Spirit, which He shall glorify. Further, what says He?And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.Ezekiel 47:12 This means, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,This means: Whosoever, He declares, shall hear you speaking, and believe, shall live for ever.” (Epistle of Barnabas, 11)
Notably, Barnabas has believers trusting in the cross unto rebirth, being converted and brought to life by the preaching of the Word, believing unto everlasting life, and then going down into the water, whereas Called to Communion takes him out of context and would have believers trust in the water itself unto rebirth.
In the next chapter, Barnabas makes clear that salvation is by trusting in the cross: “the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross, and of Him about to suffer thereon; … For what reason? That they might know that they could not be saved unless they put their trust in Him.” (Epistle of Barnabas, 12). Thus, in Chapter 11, those who are saved by placing their trust in the cross and are saved by faith unto everlasting life, and then “go down into the water.” This is not evidence of Baptismal Regeneration, but of baptism of those who are already regenerated.
The Shepherd of Hermas (2nd Century)
Called to Communion: “Here is a selection from chapter 16 of the ninth Similitude of the Shepherd of Hermas (early second century):
They were obliged,” he answered, “to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. … For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.” (Shepherd of Hermas)
Just as in the Epistle of Barnabas, the candidate is described as going into the water dead, and coming out alive. Not only that, but through baptism we are said to enter into the kingdom of God.”
White Horse Blog: As with Ignatius and Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas must be read in context. What Called to Communion gratuitously calls “candidates” are in fact what The Shepherd of Hermas called apostles, prophets and righteous men of ages past, who fell asleep “in righteousness” and “in great purity.”
The early church was puzzled about the estate of the saints who had died in the faith before Jesus’ first advent, and tried by various illustrations to show how they who departed in righteousness would enter into life. Irenaeus, for example, understood Jesus’ feeding of the apostles while they were lying down to signify that He had come to raise those who had died in the faith:
“For this reason, too, He administered food to them in a recumbent posture, indicating that those who were lying in the earth were they to whom He came to impart life.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, 22.1)
The author of The Shepherd of Hermas was struggling with the same concept, and chapter 16 is his attempt to explain it. Those who “ascend through water in order that they might be made alive” are not unregenerate “candidates” and catechumens passing through the water of baptism unto rebirth, but believers of ages past who had fallen asleep in righteousness and purity, then after the resurrection of Christ, pass through the water to enter eternity. The context bears this out.
The 4th chapter of the Ninth Similtude speaks of a vision in which 10 “stones,” then 25, then 35, then 40, “ascend out of the pit” and are carried by “virgins” and are fitted into the “foundation” of a “tower” which is the Church. In the 15th chapter the author then asks his guide for an explanation for the meaning of those stones. The “stones,” as the author would have it, were the dead from ages past who had “fallen asleep… in righteousness and great purity” and were then translated through water into the tower to be the foundation stones:
“
And the stones, sir,I said,which were taken out of the pit and fitted into the building: what are they?The first,he said,the ten, viz., that were placed as a foundation, are the first generation, and the twenty-five the second generation, of righteous men; and the thirty-five are the prophets of God and His ministers; and the forty are the apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.” (Shepherd of Hermas, Book III, Ninth Similtude, 15).
The author then asks why “righteous men,” “prophets of God and His ministers,” “apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God” have to pass through the water. Clearly the “water” in this vision is the means by which those who died in faith are resurrected to eternal life after they “fell asleep” and “slept in righteousness”:
“
Why, sir,I said,did these stones ascend out of the pit, and be applied to the building of the tower, after having borne these spirits?They were obliged,he answered,to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. …For they slept in righteousness and in great purity, but only they had not this seal.” (Shepherd of Hermas, Book III, Ninth Similtude, 16).
What Called to Communion sees in this is only what their Roman lenses allow. However, apostles, prophets, preachers and teachers who slept in righteousness and great purity are not “candidates” for the Roman baptismal font. This citation from The Shepherd of Hermas is not a reference to Baptismal Regeneration at all, but an attempt by its author to apply the seal of baptism retroactively to those who died in the faith before baptism was instituted. If Rome desires to teach baptism even for the dead who have “fallen asleep in righteousness and great purity,” they have their proof in The Shepherd of Hermas. But it is not proof of Baptismal Regeneration.
Justin Martyr (late 2nd Century)
Called to Communion: “Next, is the well known figure of St. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165). Here are some selections from his First Apology:
“I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. They then are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. . . . The reason for this we have received from the Apostles.” (Chapter 61)
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. (Chapter 66)
Notice that Justin Martyr, writing about fifty years after the death of the Apostle John, claims that they received from the Apostles the doctrine that through baptism they receive “remission of sins that are past” [i.e. prior to baptism], and through baptism they are “regenerated” in the same manner that all Christians were regenerated (i.e. by baptism).”
White Horse Blog: We marvel that Called to Communion offers this as evidence for Baptismal Regeneration. Justin Martyr sees the baptism as a public “dedication” made by those who already “had been made new through Christ.” Again, the rebirth—i.e., “had been made new”—was “through Christ,” and the water baptism was a “dedication” that followed the renewal. That Justin Martyr is not speaking of regeneration by the act of baptism, but rather that those who are regenerated are baptized, is plainly evident in his closing sentence:
“And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.” (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61)
We highlight the fact that Justin Martyr called baptism the “washing of illumination” because it is only they who are first “illuminated in their understandings” that are “washed,” and illumination, as Justin wrote, is being “persuaded and believ[ing] that what we teach and say is true.” In other words, they who are first illuminated who are then “brought by us where there is water.” If this “washing” is called “illumination” because they who are “illuminated” are “washed,” then it is also called “regeneration” for the same reason: those who are regenerated “had been made new through Christ” and are then “washed,” for this is “the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new.”
That Justin Martyr saw “illumination” as conversion, rebirth, faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is evident from his Dialogue with Trypho. He writes to Trypho, an observant Jew,
“…daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 39).
“…but our circumcision [of the heart, i.e., regeneration], which is the second, having been instituted after yours, circumcises us from idolatry and from absolutely every kind of wickedness by sharp stones, i.e., by the words [preached] by the apostles of the corner-stone cut out without hands.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 114).
“[citing Isaiah 49:6] You think that these words refer to the stranger and the proselytes, but in fact they refer to us who have been illumined by Jesus.. … we will not understand this of the old law and its proselytes, but of Christ and His proselytes, namely us Gentiles, whom He has illumined.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 122).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church tries in vain to rescue Rome’s Baptismal Regeneration by citing Justin Martyr’s First Apology, but we note that Rome gets him backwards. The Catechism says, “Having received in Baptism … ‘the true light that enlightens every man,’ the person baptized has been ‘enlightened.'” (CCC, 1216). But Justin Martyr did not say that “he who is washed is illuminated.” He said, rather, “he who is illuminated is washed,” for the illumination clearly came first, as did therefore the regeneration.
Called to Communion: “In his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, St. Justin contrasts Christian baptism with the Jewish baptism, writing:
By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God’s people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? (ch. 14)
This [Jewish] circumcision is not, however, necessary for all men, but for you [Jews] alone, in order that, as I have already said, you may suffer these things which you now justly suffer. Nor do we receive that useless baptism of cisterns, for it has nothing to do with this baptism of life. Wherefore also God has announced that you have forsaken Him, the living fountain, and dug for yourselves broken cisterns which can hold no water. Even you, who are the circumcised according to the flesh, have need of our circumcision; but we, having the latter, do not require the former. (ch. 19)
As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it. (ch. 43)
When the Fathers speak of the “laver” or the “laver of “repentance” or the “laver of regeneration,” they are speaking of baptism. Here, St. Justin is contrasting Christian baptism with Jewish baptisms. According to St. Justin, Christians receive spiritual circumcision through baptism.”
White Horse Blog: Because Justin has plainly taught that circumcision of the heart, conversion, regeneration, being “made new,” receiving the indwelling of the Spirit are all by the preaching of the Word, Called to Communion is left filling in for us what they wish Justin Martyr had said. But Justin Martyr is clear enough when read in the totality of his thought. “Illumination” took place first, and he who is illuminated is then washed. Being “made new” takes place first, and he who is made new is then led to to the water. Thus the washing is called the washing of illumination and the washing of regeneration. In both cases, the illumination and the regeneration happened first. Therefore, in Justin’s thought, baptism cannot be the means of regeneration or illumination, because both illumination and regeneration are antecedent to it.
We conclude this section on Justin Martyr with his own words:
“For Isaiah did not send you to a bath, there to wash away murder and other sins, which not even all the water of the sea were sufficient to purge; but, as might have been expected, this was that saving bath of the olden time which followed those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death, who died for this very reason, as Isaiah himself said, when he spoke thus:” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 13)
As Justin plainly states, we are not sent to a bath, but by faith to the blood of Christ for our purification. Those who have been made new, with faith in Christ, trusting in his Cross and illuminated by the revelation of His Word, are “then are brought by us where there is water” and dedicated to Him in a public profession, having first been regenerated “by the words [preached] by the apostles of the corner-stone cut out without hands.”
Next week we will continue with Theophilus of Antioch and Irenaeus.
Tim, you wrote:
“Therefore, “reunion” is the wrong word for those who depart the faith and join Roman Catholicism. They are not Christians reunited with the True Church. They are apostates who have “wondered after the beast” (Revelation 13:3), and have joined Antichrist, a religion that came up 300 years after the apostolic era.”
What about those who are “Protestants” and Roman Catholics that proclaim they have liberty of conscience, or freedom of conscience to worship together, and that you are just intolerant of their “true catholic” religion?
After starting your article, I could not help but to think about the service today and the sermon that covers the topic on true liberty of conscience vs. a pretended liberty of conscience on what Christians can believe and not believe (e.g., a lie).
Jump forward to the sermon at 35:00 and listen. I think that this principle can be used in your own testimony here to shut down the traditional “freedom of conscience” response.
Thanks, Walt,
I’ll take a listen. Thanks for sending the link.
Tim
Thx Walt. That youtube link was really helpful.
Excellent as always. Well researched and spot on. Peter gives his whole discourse of olivet and baptism is so important that he never mentions it. Acts 10:43 ” Of Him all the Prophets bear witness that thru His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins” so much for being a failing kidney patient that must go to the mass to get an infusion to live. A life of faith sustains. Baptism ex opere operato is requiring God to save, not whom He chooses, but who man chooses. Usurping the Spirit in regeneration and faith. Roman magic waters of infant baptism confers faith, born again, forgiveness of original sin and the first instalment of justification. And for 50 bucks more you can you get a steak dinner and a few years temporal punishment burnt off. But seriously Tim if you think about it Roman baptism doesnt accomplish anything because if they dont die in sanctifying grace its for not. This concept is so against scripture. Romans 5:17, 1 Peter 1:23, James1: 18 say we are regenerated thru the Spirit thru hearing the word of God. Nice job Tim. Look forward to the rest. Certainly Rome putting their “mark” on babies is a method of Satan.
Baptism will always be a sign of the covenant and a seal and confirmation of God’s grace and promise. Infant baptism as a sign of covenant membership I’m ok with. But faith saves not baptism. And baptism ex opere operato is against what the bible teaches. They severely distort Titus 3:5 which eliminates all righteous deeds and is talking about the waning away of sin and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is consistent with what Jesus told Nicodemus, the reference to the OT washing away of sin. The work of the spirit is in view here.
Titus 3:5 specifically says Baptism is NOT a righteous deed. Can’t you read?
Jim, the Catholic church makes baptism a requirement to be saved, then its a righteous deed. And 3:5 says its by god’s mercy that we are saved by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit. Not every time baptizo is used it talks about physical baptism. And incidentally the word means to IMMERSE.
Tim,
This is what we have been waiting for?
Jim,
There is much more, of course. Baptismal Regeneration was too voluminous to include in The Rise of Roman Catholicism, and warranted its own thread.
Thanks for reading, though,
Tim
Tim, you wrote:
“We highlight the fact that Justin Martyr called baptism the “washing of illumination” because it is only they who are first “illuminated in their understandings” that are “washed,” and illumination, as Justin wrote, is being “persuaded and believ[ing] that what we teach and say is true.”
I naturally assume you believe in infant baptism, and that even some adult “believers” are baptized never to reach to a true saving knowledge of Christ…as infants could too.
Yes, you are correct. The point of the citation from Justin Martyr was not to disprove infant baptism but rather to show the great lengths to which the early church went to instruct adult converts before baptism—to the point that there is no way Justin could have meant that the baptism was itself the illumination. The illumination was the instruction that the adult recipients of baptism presumably believed to be true prior to going down into the water.
Rome reverses the order and has those washed “illuminated” by the water, as if Justin Martyr had not plainly explained what he meant by illumination.
Thanks,
Tim
Yes, I got that from your clearly, well written distinction, but that one paragraph raised the question in my mind. I’ve been in exhausting debates with Baptists and other sects for years on infant baptism and everyone once in a while I find a Presbyterian who not only rejects our covenants and terms of communion, but infant baptism. I did not think you were one, but needed to ask.
Tim,
Kelvin complained that the Catholics require a candidate to jump through 27 hoops prior to being justified in Baptism. Now you say Justin concurred. Thanks.
Jim,
Something you may find interesting in this study of baptism in the early church is that the “laver” does not always refer to the baptismal font, but many times refers to Christ’s death on the Cross. We’ll look into that a little more with Hippolytus, but since you mention Justin, you may like to read this:
He then makes a lengthy citation of Isaiah 52-54. He then continues, saying,
But what baptism did Isaiah announce, but the washing by the blood of Christ? Before you run off to conclude that Justin had water baptism in mind, you should read what he says next:
My point here is that Justin saw justification by faith in the blood of Christ, and it is in this context that he said to Trypho,
He wasn’t sending us to water for justification, Jim. He was sending us to the cross, and held that justification was by faith in the blood of Christ.
When we get to Hippolytus, he’ll repeat this theme as well.
Thanks as always for writing,
TIm
Jim, why do your truncate. Thats RCIA I’m taking about. Consider that a RCIA person takes minimum one year and 27 things to do before being initially justified. And thats just the first installment. You got to merit your continuance in grace your whole life. Yet Paul says to the one who does not work, not that of yourselves. not of works, with man it is impossible with God all things possible, not to the one who runs or works, if its by grace it is no longer by works. God justifies ungodly people, saves sinners, apart from works. In Rome God saves the inherently righteous, the devout. Jesus said to the Romanist of that day, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you won’t enter. He didn’t say unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Prostitutes. He told the Prostitutes and tax collector who cry for mercy, your faith has saved you, go home righteous. And he told those who hold onto their own righteousness the requirement of the Law. Jim, Walt has told you and the others, its time to put the idols away, the pilgrimages, prayers to Mary, statues, relics, scapulars, indulgences ( the selling of Christ’s merits), Masses, candles, plastic rosaries, your own works righteousness, and trust in the name of Jesus. Paul says we are saved from faith to faith. It covers the whole life, all of salvation. Paul told us he was the most upright Jew and yet he wanted to “not be found in his righteousness, but in Christ’s. Isaiah said all his righteous deeds are like filthy rags. Your works can’t stand Jimboy. You have to come on your knees and cry for mercy in repent and believe, and you shall know salvation. Your friend Kevin.
Kevin,
Thx so much again for showing clearly that Rome does not offer just “orange juice” but the mixture of “orange juice and strychnine”. And she offers nothing else. To argue that the orange juice, considered by itself, is nutritious is to miss the point, for Rome does not offer orange juice alone. This is often where I get bamboozled and think that the RC apologists are offering the truth, whereas as you have many, many, times indicated it is ALWAYS truth+ that is being offered. Thankyou for consistently and clearly pointing this out. The penny is finally beginning to drop with me.
Tim, isn’t clear that infant baptism ex opere operato is a clear violation of the sovereignty of God, and a usurping of the Spirit to blow where he wills ?
Maybe the Spirit’s blowing moves people towards the LAVER of regeneration.
Jim, The Spirit certainly blows where He wants brings the Word to the heart, rewords us if you will, which justifies us. Baptism is the sign and seal and confirmation of this reality. The washing was God’s sign and seal of the illumination. Interestingly Jimboy the scripture says we become one spirit with Christ. When God looks into us He sees the Spirit of Christ and see us as if we had never sinned, because He sees a real righteousness purchased for us us thru the obedience unto death. We are truly righteous because we are in Christ and He is in us. Our new creature is righteous. Paul says God justifies the ungodly who do not work, so it can’t be a righteousness of our own, but one that can only be apprehended by faith alone in Christ alone, the righteousness that comes form God thru faith. It can’t be infused, it must be imputed and truly is imparted to us thru union with Christ. So there is a verdict because there was a true payment and this righteousness becomes ours thru union with him. So it isn’t only legal declaration but we are truly righteous in Him. But not by anything wrought in us but thru an alien righteousness that can only be apprehended thru faith.
Walt, I hope that you would concede that no matter where believers fall on infant baptism, Which personally I have been converted to the reformed view, that infant baptism ex opere operato is wrong.
Like circumcision was wrong before the child could profess the Shema too, huh?
Tim, where is the Catholic push back here on Baptism. You may an air tight argument.
Well, there is a lot of history yet to cover. We still have to get through Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Pamphilus of Caesarea and St. Methodius… There is a lot of gloss, interpolation, extrapolation, inference and misconstruction that has to be corrected in the intervening centuries leading up to the latter half of the 4th…
Thanks,
Tim
Tim, We all we look forward to you fleshing it out thru history. My guess is when you have stripped it all away the entry point into this holistic salvation will always be faith and not baptism.
Tim, We must always remember in one full swoop in Romans 4:5 Paul destroys every argument of Roman Catholicism. Rome says that salvation is given to one who woks for it and Paul says its given to one who does not work for it! Its a gift, not a salary you collect at the end of your life of cooperation with grace.
KELVIN, Kelvin, kelvin,
Of course salvation is not a salary. It is a reward. We earn salaries. We merit rewards. Haven’t I explained this to you a hundred times?
Why can’t you grasp this? Are your really that dim-witted/? or just a liar pretending not to have ever been told the difference?
Hodge systematic theology ” In like manner, baptism does not make a man a Christian. It is appointed means of avowing that he is a Christian; it is a badge of his Christian profession before men, it secures privileges for him in the visible church, and its a pledge on the part of God that, if sincere and faithful, he shall partake of all the benefits of the redemption of Christ.”
Jim said ” we merit rewards” Paul call it getting payed a salary. Remember Jim Romans 6:23 ” the free gift of eternal life.” If God gave grace as a response to an action or an ability it wouldn’t be a gift but a reward. Rome says in its Cannon ” as a reward to the merits and good works. Paul says to the one who works pay you your wage.
Kevin,
Do you think Paul knew that Jesus used the word “reward”?
Tim,
I noticed a couple of days ago that you slurred the Eucharist in a post to Annie. I was a bit surprised as you usually leave your dirty work to Kevin. You like to look civil and fair don’t you? You guys form a “good cop/ bad cop” team right? What did Annie do to push your buttons? Or is Kevin’s low brow Jack Chick level of bigotry wearing off on you?
Jim, I was loving to Annie. Don’t try to Pit Tim against me. You constantly attack my character because your an old fart and know the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Ive been around the block a few times Jim. You being dishonest as usual. Tim and this site has been totally welcoming to RC’s. Please stop trying to be the behavior cop. You disqualified yourself when you called me an SOB, idiot, oaf, among other things.
Kevin,
You just said a naughty f word.
Tim was nice to Annie? Where did she go?
Are you nice to Debbie? You scratch and hiss at her like an old maid.
Kevin wrote to Jim:
You constantly attack my character because your an old fart and know the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Sometimes the wheel gets replaced.
Eric, your right. I need a break. Thanks
Tim, If Paul says specifically that faith comes thru hearing the word of God, supported by 1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18, and Galatians 3 said we received the Spirit and all of salvation by hearing with faith, then how in God’s green earth can faith be bestowed on a baby ex opera operato?
// If Paul says specifically that faith comes thru hearing the word of God, supported by 1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18, and Galatians 3 said we received the Spirit and all of salvation by hearing with faith, then how in God’s green earth can faith be bestowed on a baby ex opera operato? //
Thats a sensible question. Find it stunning that such an excellent presentation reasons it’s way through the flaws of Catholic baptismal regeneration, admits illumination must precede baptism and then totally destroys that argument by admitting baptism in 99 of 100 cases will precede confession of faith by making it a ritual antitype of circumcision?? requiring a later “Confirmation” to validate the act. It’s completely incomprehensible.
Circumcision was let’s not forget a mark in the FLESH. Spiritual circumcision is the cutting of the heart NOT done by hands.
And I’m not saying it to be contentious – I am very appreciative of this article. I’m just pointing out that the paedo baptism position is unsupportable using either scripture, or type/antitype reasoning as found in the quotes as used above.
With Abraham the belief came first, then the circumcision. For the next generation, i.e. the children, the circumcision came first, then the belief.
In the NT, the first generation believers believe, followed by baptism. Their children are baptised, followed by belief. Same pattern as in the OT.
In neither is the belief guaranteed. That is the sovereign work of God.
For a more extensive exposition of paedobaptism, pls refer to William the Baptist (free).
Thx
https://www.monergism.com/william-baptist-ebook
Jim, I read the book of Hebrews today comparing the one time one time perfect offering that perfected us compared to the OT RC imperfect daily sacrifices tha Hebrews says God has not desired 10:8. I fo u nd an interesting verse 10:10 ” He takes away the first to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Now what were you asking Tim about questioning your OT sacrificial system. This verse said the sacrifices by Priests who die and offered up imperfect sacrifices has been replaced by a perfect once offering that sanctified us past tense. Salvation is all forensic for Paul, even our sanctification and glorification that was secured by a perfect sacrifice. Your OT sacrificial system cant get you to heaven. Sacraments take their rightful place in the NT as signs and seals and confirmation of grace we receive by faith. K
Lutherans and anglicans have shown that justification by faith alone is not antithetical to “baptismal regeneration”. Baptism is seen as the ordinary (not always) appointed time in which justification by faith takes place. Faith is seen as concomitant in baptism. Salvation is offered, faith receives it in this provisional means of grace. Baptism does not regenerate itself (by the performance
there of) yet it is am instrument of the holy spirit (work of god)
not just a sign but a means. Justification by faith alone is not denied. Faith is the sole means that receives the gift but just as God uses the word to bring one to Faith, he also uses baptism (though not exactly the same, one is absolute the other ordinary).
Man, Jim is such a TROLL. I suggest we ignore this guy. He loses arguments and has to attack the person because he has no other ammo than RC nonsense.
Thanks, Ernest. You are quite right. Jim was removed some time ago for that very reason.
Tim
Also note that the Epsitle of Barnabas said those who are baptized and believe get to go to heaven. That baptismal regeneration there!
It also seems like paedo baptism violates the Reformed own rule of scripture or necessary consequence. Although I understand the argument made that in Reformed theology that it brings the child into the the covenant. But like circumcision in the OT you could have all the earthly blessings of being a Jew and yet be on your way to hell as an unbeliever.